melissa: but california, of course, is so sensitive to what goes on in the environment. as soon as i read this, and i saw that it trechs from santa barbara to san fransisco, i thought, well, there you go. these are two of the most environmentally sensitive places on the planet. i just don't see how the signs of the economic benefit are worth what would be dangerous to the environment. >> well, let me say a couple things to that, melissa. first, we agree absolutely the environment has to be protected. that's issue number one. any energy source that does grave damage to the environment should not be pursued, and so there needs to be objective analysis of the implications, but there needs to be objective analysis of the economic implications. you can't balance cost and benefits unless you know -- melissa: you look at things like the xl pipelines, there's no objective analysis satisfying unless it's destroying the environment. they are an enemy of shale, fracking, enemy of oil of the there's no report -- if the report came out and said that it wouldn't cause damage, environm